To me, it seems the equivalent of a secondary school kid beating up a primary school child who was throwing rather painful stones at him. Sure the child needs to learn to stop, but so does the older kid.
Anyway, while I am still afraid to pledge my allegiance, I am leaning ever so slightly to the Palestinian side and I find this posting from Fawaz on Facebook a pretty good justification why:
Rule #1: In the Middle East, it is always the Palestinians that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. This is called "retaliation".
Rule #2: The Palestinians are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called "terrorism".
Rule #3: Israel has the right to kill Palestinian civilians; this is called "self-defense", or "collateral damage".
Rule #4: When Israel kills too many Palestinian civilians, the Western world calls for restraint. This is called the "reaction of the international community".
Rule #5: Palestinians do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even 1 or 2.
Rule #6 : Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (around 10,000 to date being held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. All that is needed is the magic word: "terrorism".
Rule #7: When you say "Hamas", always be sure to add "supported by Hezbo-Allah, Syria and Iran".
Rule #8: When you say " Israel", never say "supported by the USA, the UK, European countries and even some Arab regimes", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.
Rule #9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories", "UN resolutions", "Geneva conventions". T his could distress the audience of Fox, CNN, etc.
Rule #10: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules 1 through 9. This is called "neutral journalism".
Rule #11: If you don't agree with these rules or if you favor the Palestinian side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-Semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.THIS IS CALLED: DEMOCRACY!!
And also, because I was shocked to find that sites exist where people are so blinded by the need to CRUSH THE INFIDEL HAMAS that they would make comments like this:
At 9:03 AM, Daniel434 said...
If Israel knows for sure that they are there (very high ranking Hamas leaders), then Israel must take the step neccessary to protect itself from a violent agressor that threatens the Apple of God's eye every day -- meaning, drop a ten ton bomb on the hospital or whatever it takes.The problem is, what if Israel leaflets the hospital and Hamas leadership flees? Hamas has seen what Israel did to another high ranking officer, leaflets and then boom. This time they might flee. While I would prefer them to leaflet and have the innocent wounded leave, I wonder if it is too risky. Like NormanF said, it is time to decapitate Hamas.Oh, and screw public/world opinion.
The same guy continued on:
At 10:11 AM, Daniel434 said...
I know Carl has made these clear many times with meticulous research and evidence but I also want to share what one of my favorite seminary and pastor teacher (Kenny Rhodes-SermonAudiodotcom) said:"The 'Palestinian' people are not an ethnic group, they are not a people, they are not an indigenous people. They are descendants from other arabs in that area with absolutely no history of being in that land and they have no claim to the land of Israel. It has always been Israel's land since God gave it to Israel and ordered Yaakov to conquer the Canaanites. There is no such thing as a 'Palestinian' people."So, there you have it from a very good Christian man, too bad not all my brethren think the same, but we are getting there. I hope that statement shuts up the mouth of any who would disparaging comments here in favor of the carpetbaggers.
Gosh that last comment just pisses me off for too many reasons! I have highlighted in red what i think to be nonsense statements. Now i know i will be criticised for my non God-fearing ways but I have a real problem with 'God gave it to Israel'.
First of all, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are practically one and the same. They share the same characters, much of the same teachings and arguably the same holy book just in different cultural context. So, my take is, God gave it to one of the faiths, he inadvertently gave it to the others that sprung from it.
He gave it to the the Jews... whose faith formed the basis of Christianity (modified Judaism for the Roman context) ... who shares too many similarities with Islam to not have had a hand in its creation too.
Religion and God-given rights aside, the only thing that has ever been able to decide the matter of territory is how much gunpower you have.
My second gripe. To say that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people is like saying there is no such thing as an American people. Or to hit closer to home, a Malaysian people. "Oh, they've only lived there for centuries. That doesn't make them Palestinian."
Okay, even in the bible, the people of Israel were from somewhere else. And then the UN created Israel AGAIN, 50 years ago. Israel has no greater claim to existence than Palestine or any other country for that matter!
I guess one of my biggest problems with religion is that all too often instead of being a promoter of good, it becomes a justification for misguided actions.
I welcome opinions and insights. After all, who am i to decide a decades-old problem?
5 comments:
the points you provide are valid indeed, but let us throw out some (secular) points for the other side: after all it is difficult to go up against an opponent without some perspective.
1. When people complain about the use of "excessive" force, the question that next gets asked is "what force is NOT excessive then? If 1000 deaths is excessive, is it that 500 is not? what about 50?" we find there is no concept of "reasonable" force - there is only the concept that we disagree with Israel. The schoolboy analogy does not work because the stakes are not merely injuries that can heal but actual, permanent deaths on both sides. If a murderer is threatening a loved one, what force is "reasonable" - we would answer, exactly enough force to stop him, and not more - whatever it takes. To them is not a matter of "revenge" where if they suffer 1 death they'll kill 1 of you - it's a matter of "have I reached my goal" where the goal is security for their families. As long as the rockets keep coming, that goal is not reached.
2. Israelis really do believe they are fighting for their survival. Their history has been filled with strife and they have enemies on all sides. From their point of view - the feeble Palestinian people are to them, the tiny tip of the spear pointing at their vulnerable heart, with the entire weight of the entire 2 billion strong Muslim world behind them, waiting for the perfect time for the killing thrust to reclaim Jerusalem again. THAT is why their military reaction towards them is so strong. They are a paranoid nation, and desperate people do desperate things. There is no "fairness" in war. The US dropped two atomic bombs killing 200,000+ civilians in Japan, against a country who had never attacked a civilian city in the US. It is heartening that not much more than half a century later the world is strongly condemning Israel for killing 1,000 people (but the Isrealis might feel slightly picked on)
-~-
Regarding the whole "Israel today is the land given by God to the Jews" you're not the only one with a problem with that - it's not really the (educated) majority view of many Christians, Muslims, and even quite a few Jews. Some people still say that, of course, but I think you'll find that they aren't the majority opinion at least among scholars of the religious texts.
The current I/P conflict isn't really a religious war. Seems like more of property rights war. Yeah there have been some pretty misguided actions in the past and we do condemn them as being wrong. There's been lots of good too brought about by religion in general. But that's all besides the point: no one really follows a religion because it's "good" but they do it because they're convinced its true. It's like the difference between marrying someone because they have lots of good points, as opposed to marrying someone because you know you love them and they love you. People still do the former in religion and marriage but it's a much shallower experience of both.
I am all for secular points from both sides!
1) There is never reason in war. There is also no perfect victory. I wish leaders could realise this and work to compromise.
2) I never saw it in the spear through the heart way but it does seem pretty daunting. I guess with the past precedent of countries' blatant disrespect of international law, there is never a guarantee for the Israeli nation to have a safe existence. Fair point for which i have no rejoinder.
I hope noone took that example of Israel as God-given land to the Jews as a personal attack. I know (or at least i believe) that it is the view of a minority of practising Christians/Jews. Just like it is a minority of Muslims who believe that Allah beseeches them to kill for the love of God. (disclaimer: i have not covered Islam quite so well but most Muslims I have met are peace-loving)
I do not mean this as a criticism but sometimes I am just in awe that people can place so much faith in religion. To me, I place as much belief in religious text as I do in other books (this is the part where you hurl abuse of 'kaafir' and 'heathen unbeliever') and i don't know how so many people can believe in a text 2,000 years old (or more?). I guess i'm a skeptic at heart (and finding out more and more that i'm an atheist) but while i acknowledge that portions of the text must have some historical and factual basis, there are some things that I take as exaggerations or 'stretchings of the truth' to suit an oftentimes political need.
For me, everyday news/books/articles need to be taken with a pinch of salt because the writer will always have an agenda and even if they don't, they will come from some cultural bias or have some limitation of experience. With this ingrained into me, i don't see why it should not apply to ALL text, even biblical/Q'uranic (is that a word?), and even moreso as it was written in a completely different historical context of which we cannot possibly fully appreciate.
Back to my original point, i am amazed that people can put so much faith into religion and i wonder if there is something i am missing that convinces them so.
p.s: if you don't mind sating my curiosity, is this Vong?
1) this blanket statement is demonstrably false - there are definitely some wars with good reason, and those reasons were achieved. for example, America's involvement in WW2. they could have sat out, but they didn't. and they did win completely.
not exactly sure what you mean by "believing" in a text that is 2000 years old. the older a text is, the closer it would be to the source and hence more reliable than later writings - so from a historical point of view, older = better. the dead sea scrolls date some texts of the old testament to almost 200BC, while some of new testament writer's correspondence can be dated to within 100AD. verification is of course done with the usual methods (using particle accelerators and chemical analysis to date the inks and papers used). if it can be demonstrably proved that the writings essentially remained unchanged from 2000 years old until now, then we can be sure that it has not been contaminated by human politics - i believe it does at any rate. of course there are differences in the accounts: say the 4 gospels - but that is actually expected. if 4 people turned up in court and turned in a testimony that was identical to the tiny detail, you would conclude immediately that they were coached and it was a conspiracy, or they all drew their information from the same source and hence can't be considered 4 sources, but only 1. we expect multiple observers to present more or less the same story with some differences in detail and perspective.
i don't think there's anything special you're missing =p perhaps some information, perhaps some experience.
I guess one of my biggest problems with people is that all too often they use any and all justification for misguided actions. :p (P.S. - You know I still love you. Just couldn't resist that one)
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